Only 17, it's much higher than that, I'll bet.

SOCIALISM; a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation.

@ Rhonda;
Is the description above that terrible to you? I'm not completely for socialism, but some aspects are, especially today, worthy of trying. I mean, we have tried and been beaten over the head with right-wing, neo-conservative ideals of privatisation, deregulation, laissez-faire economics and all it did was lead to immense greed and prosperity for a few highly unethical people.
People need to get over the fear mongering and the dog-whistling, it didn't help the republicans in the election, and it won't do any us any good now.

The 17 Socialists in Congress are the least of the problem. The 20 Disciples of Satan, whom I will be glad to privately name to members of the fanofgrendel "Fan of the Fan" fan club, are card carrying architects of our doom.

hint:

Satan's handmistress.

@fanofgrendel: 20 disciples of Satan, is that the same as "evildoers" or is that a completely different group?!?

@fanofgrendel: wait, she would probably fit in both categories.

@fanofgrendel: oh right, because you doctored a few images and colored her face up, she's one of the disciples….thanks for the warning. But you must name the rest of them publicly, don't do it privately and forsake saving us all, name them here and now and save america from their, um, satan-ism(?!)
…Quick question, are you mentally unstable? wait don't answer that.

@dan1984:

Hi Dan,

Went to dinner last night with four girlfriends, the five of us had this very discussion. Two of us felt stongly about capitalism (me), two felt we need regulation, top executives have become to greedy, one felt both sides were right.

This is my point: right or wrong, its mine

Most people feel when they talk about socialism, they aren't talking about themselves. I always hear about the greedy, ultrarich. Those awful people need to be regulated. I agree, to a point, but why should a CEO of a international corporation receive less pay than say a rock star or a movie star or a basketball player? what begins at the top usually ends up effecting the rest of us, I'm self-employed, I don't want the government determing what my value is worth. I grew up believing that I could achieve according to my ability, if I work harder I can make more. I don't want for future generations of Americans to grow up with no hope, no ability to achieve more, stuck in the position they born to. In America the poor can become the rich. in socialism and communism, your born rich or your born poor. We wouldn't see this right away, but future generations would. Thoughts?…………

I'll be brave and give another hint!

Maxine Waters!

@Rhonda: I actually agree. Not sure what you did with the real Rhonda, but that was a rational post.

@Rhonda: i understand your point, it's perfectly fine to want to retain has much as you possibly can from the fruits of your labour.
A CEO should earn as much as he can/wants, my problem with a lot of these guys at these companies is they made all these risks with other peoples money, and when they cocked up superbly they didn't cough up a cent; they're incompetence was bailed out and they still walked away with a ferrari or 10, that's the capitalism we've been sold in recent years and it's nearly destroyed us. Also, my view is that we all got something in the beginging because of the taxes people have payed through the years, yeah individual determination is required to succeed, but without state schools, public roads, police forces, fire depts, etc, we wouldn't have been able to get our college education, or a good job, or walk down the street in safety. We all at some point benefited from the social pot, so we should all be putting back into it (however much that sometimes hurts).

@Rhonda: noisy waters run shallow.

@dan1984: Capitalism is not confined to CEO's and big companies. Everyone can engage in capitalism, that is the beauty and freedom of it. Corporations have been given free rein to ignore their moral and civic minded duties to the community which makes it possible for them to operate and capitalize. What we need to see is corporations exhibiting a sense of social conscious. That's a far cry from Socialism.

Hell no, I don't think Socialism sounds good at all. I'd rather survive on my own than have the government own everything in exchange for my freedom to sink or swim. That said, I do think we're all entitled to medical care. Big Pharma controls a lot of medical care we get in the form of influencing doctors, conducting faulty research resulting in bad medicine, and contributes sometimes to our death - so, no, I don't feel much like protecting their freedom to capitalize on our flesh to make a buck.

Why is it "cool" for NYC-DC-LA types to mock everyone in America who lives between NYC-DC and LA? Has anyone from NYC-DC or LA ever been to that big blank space between the Coasts? (you know; where all the ignorant masses live in those big stupid red spaces)?

@dan1984:

Things in life always seem to run in cycles. Our system has become corrupt, people have lost faith in the system. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water, but get back to basics.

The POTUS, his first obligation is to faithfully execute and defend America against all threats both foreign and domestic, not to run GM!

Bush started this nationalization, I hated then, I hate it now.

The individual cannot build a military, state dept, police, fire. It's been a while since political science, but here goes:
that's why we are a "representative republic". We elect congressmen and senators to do "the common good" They have not done well for us, any of us.

We now hear these representatives mocking CEO's about their airplanes while we hear the military complain they have become the government's personal airlines.

These politicians are happy to take the power of other people's work, but as that cycle turns, it gets much uglier than corruption we see today. We are headed straight for a Hitler type person who will not let go of the power, when his time is up. Many conservatives and more independents are beginning to see the danger signs. Those who do not honor history are doomed to repeat it.

@Kinky-Neo-Con: Most people who live in NY-DC-LA came from those wide open spaces in the middle. My question is why are people in this country so threatened by geography all of a sudden it is divisive and silly. I know the republican leadership wants you to believe there are two Americas but there aren't there is one America and the people in it have some different but many shared values. Let stop all the overly dramatic two Americas b*llshit. This is not Iraq it is America.

@bam-a-lam:
Bam,
I believe in my heart, yes, our country is rich enough to ensure every citizen health care. The reality is POWER, I, believe, right or wrong, that when the government decides who lives and who dies, it will be the end of America as we know it.

When the government has control of your health care they have the right to demand that you act accordingly. Maybe that sounds like a good idea, to demand that fat people go on a diet and if they don't then deny them blood pressure medicine, or if your sexual activity results in disease, they would have the power to decide who lives and who dies. Why would anyone research new drugs when they would only prolong life when that is to expensive? It's to much POWER to give to a government agency, that's just my opinion.

Let's not forget the government gave the HMO's power of life and death. Go to Canada if you need an operation you get one here your HMO will decide it is too expensive. People with insurance are being denied coverage. The Presidents mother had to spend the last months of her life fighting with her insurance company about them paying for her treatment.

Who's talking to you, please Go to Canada and Stay!

In Canada, people die before they get their operation, it's wait in line!

Who is talking to you? I'm a proud American and I'm not going anywhere. You are the one who wants to divorce your country you traitor. Stop posting at me. And your welcome for sticking up for you when that guy Real man ripped you to shreds.

@Rhonda: I think that we are the people and we are the ones who have the power. We have to figure out how to use it the most effectively. There should never be a runaway train in the White House, and thanks to term limits there never will be. Bush's terms served to possibly make people more distrustful of the government as well as more dependent on it now. Through the economic meltdown we have new and larger groups of people who have lost everything, but due to different circumstances, we've always had large groups of people who either had nothing to lose or had already lost what they once had. They all have had to figure out what was important to keep with them always, and what could be thrown away. It's what you choose to keep that defines who you are. We have to appeal to our own American identity at any cost, and we have to be that American. We can't capitulate to fear of government any more than we can cave in to fear of failure. The government works for us, and is a reflection of us, not the other way around.

two people are talking health care and YOU make a big deal out of not talking to either of US. I want a divorce was a freaking joke, you silly wabbit! A nation divided, I want a divorce.

as for the "Real Man" I have no idea what YOU are talking about!

do you have real men dancing around in your head? Take your own advice and don't talk to me!

@Rhonda: Also, with Big Pharma and HMO's running our medical system, it's THEIR voices being heard in Washington, not ours. That's just wrong.

I have no reason to post at you for some reason anytime I post you as a narcissist think I'm talking to you. This is a public thread let's be civil and ignore each other.Oh and Real man is a misogynist who ripped you a new one.

http://www.jossip.com/why-are-.....-20090409/

@getreal: Hmmm

getREAL

REALman

two sides of the same coin?

@fanofgrendel: Interesting…

@Rhonda: Getreal doesn't do anything without getting that PAT ON THE HEAD she's so accustomed to. If she did you a 'favor' then by god you damn well better acknowledge it, or she will just take it back. As if you really give a f**k.

She doesn't do anything for anybody but herself. Volunteerism - "lookylookylooky at how GREAT I am! Loooookatmeeeeeeee! I'm a better person than youuuuu…I HELP people, and then I wait for them to get down and thank me for being such an selfless and helpful person, even though it is SO obvious that I didn't have to work the needy into my busy day."

@bam-a-lam: if GETREAL were really to get real, then she wouldn't really be GETREAL anymore because she would have gotten real.

Not sure if anyone can follow that?

@fanofgrendel: How do I know this is the real grendel? Sounds like grendel…BUT IS IT?@Rhonda: I understand where you're coming from about the power thing, BUT, have you given thought to how much power insurance companies have over us right now? They check our credit to see if we're insurance worthy, they access our medical records to look for any reason to deny us medical care, they determine what procedures on your life will actually be covered, they determine which doctor you will be allowed to see and what treatments you will be allowed to get. They are profit driven and they have all this say-so about US. I do honestly believe the government could use our own tax money to provide us with medical care, and do it without discriminating against us in the process. Surely we are worth it.

@bam-a-lam: Follow this rule: if you like the comment from FANOFGRENDEL, it's really me. If you don't like the comment, it's from the faker.

Fake FANOFGRENDEL, why don't you go over to GAWKER. I hear that'a a swell place.

Do you guys ever discuss the topics at hand or just engage in these imaginary relationships and vendettas? Anyway I'm going back out. Have fun with that whole obsessively discussing other posters instead of important issues thing.

@fanofgrendel: That's the system I've been using. So far I believe it's working.

@getreal: Huh. I guess you didn't see all that discussion regarding Socialism and such not. One last thing before you go: I thought you should be aware that Somalia has had no functioning, effective government since the 90's, I believe, which is why your brilliant idea of dealing harshly with the government there and cutting off all to the refugees and victims of the wars in Somalia in order to punish the pirates makes you sound kind of dis-informed. *gasp*

@bam-a-lam: dis-informed indeed. Getreal is a bit like Milli Vanilli: phony baloney.

@fanofgrendel: Indeed.
Milli Vanilli approved.

FOG: I love the Nancy Pelosi pics especially after seeing that vid of her recently pandering to immigrants and calling it Un-American to enforce our laws against ILLEGAL immigration. But then she is a SF resident which is one of the sanctuary cities. Sadly, I live in another one.

Hi Bam

I understand the arguments, I still believe its to much POWER!

When the government decides who is BORN, who is Educated , who's life style is acceptable, who lives, who dies. its too much power for one entity, my opinion. Looks like national health care is where we are headed, so am glad so many want it.

Bam,

another thing, who is going to work as hard as they do now, if everything is Free, who's gonna work HARDER! Very few, including me!

@Rhonda: I haven't had health insurance for several years, but it hasn't affected my desire to work and make money. I'm extraordinarily healthy, or lucky, probably because I seldom go to the doctor. Free medical care is hardly "everything". I've worked and paid taxes since I was 15, and I wouldn't mind a bit having a little medical care. I'd rather us have the power than insurance companies. We can vote out an entire administration, but we have no control over insurance companies. I don't know about where you live, but I can assure you the government is already providing free health care to millions via SSI and disability. I qualify for a medical disability, but I've never even considered applying. Maybe it makes me feel old, I don't know. When I was a member of a military family, the government provided health care was phenomenal.

@bam-a-lam: Any government that is capable of giving you everything you need is also powerful enough to take away everything you have.

DTOM

DTOM

Alexander Hamilton, one smart guy!

@Rhonda: but too polite a dueler.

@DONT TREAD ON ME: I'm not advocating the government give us "everything you need", just some damned health care. It's not putting food on the table, gas in the car, paying the taxes, buying clothing, or providing a home. It's providing something that would help people be healthier. Why does the idea of health care conjure a vision of Americans lazing around, watching TV (cable by Uncle Sam!), and quitting their jobs? WE pay for it, us, taxpayers, citizens. It can be voluntary, not mandatory, so those who are vehemently opposed can just pass.

@bam-a-lam: The role of government is to protect and defend the constitution of the United States and not social director. The concept of government being, mommy, daddy, grandma, grandpa and family physician riles against the original ideals of the founding fathers and is borne out of social engineering.

"The apportionment of taxes on the various descriptions of property is an act which seems to require the most exact impartiality; yet there is, perhaps, no legislative act in which greater opportunity and temptation are given to a predominant party to trample on the rules of justice.” - James Madison

Government does not have the will nor desire to stop at just one thing (e.g. Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, and Medicaid). Volunteerism in taxation (if that is what I read in your response) is a foolhardy and myopic argument.

@DONT TREAD ON ME: No, I didn't mean volunteerism on the taxes part, just on participating in the medical care part. Taxpayers already foot the bill for millions who receive free medical through one social program or the other. I'm one of the other millions who have always fallen between the cracks - not poor enough to qualify for one of the programs, but too poor to pay for it myself. So I just do without.

When I worked for Human Services I learned that many big companies *coughWalMartcough* keep their workers just shy of enough working hours to qualify for company sponsored benefits. The employees then apply, and qualify, for various state & federal programs, i.e. food stamps, medicaid, help with utility bills, etc. So we're basically subsidizing companies who go that route. Unless your job provides you with medical insurance, or you are so poor that you have nothing, you're pretty much screwed. I totally fail to see how giving regular Americans access to health care constitutes a breakdown of the Constitution.

@bam-a-lam: So either I/we pay for it through taxes or higher prices. If I am following your logic, and corporate america shoves the responsibility of healthcare onto the government, I/we pay for it with taxes. Or we can force companies to provide healthcare and I/we still pay for it through higher prices and reduced competition.

Either way, providing healthcare is always going to be the responsibility of everyone except the person who wants it. I am scouring the constitution for the clause that government guarantees healthcare to all. I can't find it (and don’t give me that life, liberty and the pursuit happiness crap, it does not wash with me). I am scouring the constitution for the clause that states private enterprise is responsible for providing healthcare, Can’t find that either. Giving access to healthcare under a constitutional premise does not break it down, it further bastardizes it. (e.g. separation of church and state, does not exist in the constitution, it was contrived by a revisionist court.)

It's the enablement of an entitlement mentality that is driving this give me, give me, give me, give me, madness. It is not a zero sum game, somebody has to pay for it, I prefer the one who uses it to pay for it.

Not finding the issue of health care in the Constitution doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed. I put it under the heading of Finding a Social Conscious and Who's Going to Pay?

I have a solution: National Lottery. Why not? They're being voted into states by voters who've had longstanding, religious based, opposition to them, because the states get a share of the proceeds. The state then shares it with citizens by passing it on down the line. It's used to lower sales tax, property tax, fund medical care, whatever. I like this idea, actually. More fun than Constitutional debates.

Bam,

Here in Michigan, our lottery was "sold" to us years ago for "education" You can see all the people running to Mi to get educated!:)

@bam-a-lam: I think that you have an idea, but as a former resident of TN not every state is going to agree with that, especially those that are ultra-conservative, religious. TN tried for years to pass a lottery to fund education (TN has a pretty poor state education system) and it always failed…even scratch tickets.

@Jen: But they did pass it in 2004, or 2005. If I'm not mistaken, the state was going to raise some kind of tax (property or sales, maybe) and by agreeing to let lottery money pick up the slack instead of increasing everybody's rate, they worked something out and everybody voted it in.

@Rhonda: Hey, it got sold here in Arkansas for the same thing. Total rip, that one is. But Tennessee, I THINK, cut a better deal. I personally believe education already has its hands in plenty of cookie jars. Time to cut them back and give someone else a chance.

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill

A nation of democracy, opportunity, and wealth must never forsake its conscious or neglect its most valuable resource: its citizenry.

– Bam-a-Lam

I regard it as the chief duty of the state to protect the individual and give him the opporunity to develop into a creative personality.

–Albert Einstein

The greatest obstacle to international order is that monstrously exaggerated spirit of nationalism which also goes by the fair-sounding but misused name of patriotism.

–Albert Einstein

@bam-a-lam: That's good to hear. The school systems were really hurting in rural areas when I was there. I really miss the taxes in TN…no income tax is nice, MA does a doozy on your paycheck.

@Jen: I miss the taxes in TN myself. TN politicians did a much better job of allocating lottery money than most states seem to do. I found it interesting that the religious fervor that was so anti-lottery suddenly found a lottery a much more comfortable fit when it could be used to prevent higher taxes.

@bam-a-lam: Einstein?? Is that the best you can do? Einstein was a devout socialist.

From Einstein’s article in the Marxist Journal Monthly Review May 1949 titled "Why Socialism" - "I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy."

GIVE ME A BREAK BAM-A-LAM. Are you a commie??

DTOM - Any government that is capable of giving you everything you need is also powerful enough to take away everything you have.

@DONT TREAD ON ME: I think Bam-a-lam was just trying to counter argue the person who put forward the Winston Churchill quote IMO. Churchill was a hardcore conservative (both with a little and a big C) so of course the idea of socialism disgusted him, he was the victorius wartime hero-leader who lost an election mere months later to a pretty socialist Labour party (bitter much?!). I think quoting Einstein, who's universally linked with the notion of 'genius', is a more solid reference point than ol' winston.

I'm quite sure America started out as a socialist country, but I think they all starved to death and were replaced by capitalist. not talking about indians, I think they were representative republic as well. Me, Chief, you pee-on injuns!

@dan1984: I vehemently disagree with your assertion - Intelligence/genius, is no substitue for wisdom, (e.g. William Jefferson Clinton.)

DTOM - Any government that is capable of giving you everything you need is also powerful enough to take away everything you have.